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  1. #1
    Dołączył
    Sep 2004
    Przegląda
    Near the Nutzz
    Posty
    1,083
    ***1***

    I play extremely aggressively (even more so that I do live),
    and in doing so, I usually find myself facing two
    kinds of opponents: the first, and most common type
    of opponent is hesistant to get into too many pots
    with me - they will often see a flop, but not continue
    unless they hit the hand very hard (once I recognize
    these opponents, I pick up a lot of garbage pots with
    flop bets or raises), the second type of opponent is
    the kind who recognizes that I am playing with extreme aggression and will try and counter my aggression with calculated aggression of their own; (once I recognize these players, I am comfortable making tough decisions and will make some thin calls or put in third raises with nothing if I think they are trying to outplay me).

    Anyway, on this particular day, on this particular day, I was having a very
    good session, and had run my 2K starting stack to over
    32K. The game had cleared out in the last hour or so,
    leaving only two very good players in a game that was
    playing three-handed. My opponent in this hand was a
    fairly creative player, once with a lot of courage to
    make some tough calls, and able to scale his game for
    it dropping to three handed.

    OK, onto the hand. With the game three-handed, my
    opponent's stack at 2800, and me having him easily
    covered, I raised on the button with Jd Td to 55
    (which is my standard opening raise). Of course,
    three handed, on the button, that means that I
    probably have two cards - and my opponent knows this.
    He reraised me to 150. I did not think that he would
    be doing this without some sort of a hand (ie not on a
    pure bluff), but it also would not require a premium
    holding either. The big blind folded, and I obviously
    called.

    The flop comes down 9s-7s-2d, and my opponent led out
    for 200 into a pot of a little more than 300. Now, he
    could be doing this with any pair, missed overcards,
    and he would also play a set like that. I could not
    yet tell which, but having a gutshot straight draw, a
    backdoor flush draw, overcards - and most importantly,
    position on him, I decided to call. I thought that I
    had way too much equity (primarily in the advantage of
    position) to fold here, but I thought if I raised, he
    would call or (probably) reraise with an overpair and
    with his courage (and frustration at my running over
    the game), might reraise me with overcards. So I
    decided to just call and see what he did on the turn.

    The turn was a total brick - the three of clubs. My
    opponent bet out a very weak bet 200 - into a pot of
    about 700. Now, against 90% of opponents, I attack
    this kind of weakness and would raise to about
    600-700. However, there were two factors at work that
    made me decide against that. First, I had really run
    over this game, and my opponent was a little
    frustrated. I could see him making a stand with a
    hand like 66. And second, this was one of the few
    very good players who was capable of faking weakness
    against a player like me with a monster and trying to
    induce a raise. Now based on his turn play, I ruled
    out hands like A-9, K-9, 10-10, J-J, and probably QQ,
    KK, and AA too. I think that he would have bet those
    hard on the turn after I called the flop bet and the
    turn was such a brick. I think that his weak turn bet
    would mean a pair lower than the nine, missed
    overcards (most likely), or a monster setting a trap.
    ... So in this case, I decided to call again. I knew
    I was playing this exactly like a spade draw, so I
    figured the following.

    (a) if he has a set, I have 9 outs to win the pot: my
    four real outs to the straight, plus any other spade
    that does not pair the board. I have played this so
    much like a flush draw, that there is no way I don't
    win the pot if the third spade hits - he will even
    fold a set here.

    (b) if he has overcards, I will know by his check or
    the size of his bet on the river, and I will win the
    pot - on any card except for a non-spade ace, king, or
    queen (which I would just give up on);

    (c) if he has a pair, I will again know by his river
    action, and I win on any card that isn't a non-spade
    ace, king, or queen or makes his set.

    So putting that all together - and me having
    confidence on figuring out his holding after his river
    action, I had a clear call of 200 into a pot that was
    now (with my call over 1100).

    The river was my perfect card - an offsuit eight,
    giving me the nuts. He checked. When he checked, I
    knew for certain that he had either missed overcards
    or some sissy pair. Now, I had a new problem,
    Instead of figuring out how to win the pot as I was
    doing throughout the hand, I now had to figure out how
    to get paid. I knew his holding was weak - most
    likely no pair. However, I also knew that I had
    played this exactly like a spade draw. ... Another
    quick piece of background information: no matter what
    the situation - whether I have the nuts, a stone
    bluff, or anything in between - I almost always bet
    between 2/3 and 3/4 of the pot. The reasons for this
    can be discussed another time if you like. However,
    in this case, I decided to make an exception. Since I
    had to try and get called by (most likely) AK - a no
    pair hand, I had to make this look like a busted draw.
    So I think the bet size is important. So I decided
    to bet 1000 into the pot of 1100+. The specific value
    of 1000 is higher than I would normally bet in this
    spot (and he knows that) - and moreover, it just
    "looks" like a bluffing amount.

    ***2***

    Player X raises from the CO 1st in, you call on the BUTTON with a As4s.

    Flop is Qh 4h 3s. Your opponent bets.

    Lets say you were sure he had a mid pair like 77. Well you have 5 outs and a backdoor flush. He is not giving you odds to call due to the size of his bet. But wait, the board has one over and 2 hearts. Potentially you have 3 Qs and 9 hearts extra as outs for a total of 17. Now you have odds. If your opponent can fold to a scare card this might be a good place to call and try a bluff. Even if it fails you have 5 real outs to beat him.

    Daniel N. pulled this on Freddy Deebs at the Tournament Masters on TV. I thought it was one of the best bluffs I ever saw. He player his hand thinking he had outs then played the board as it developed into a reasonable hand he COULD have that would smoke Deeb. Deed folded TP TK on the river to nothing.

  2. #2
    niesamowita analiza gry, jak dla mnie niedoscigniony wzor !

    co do rozdania drugiego to bardzo mi sie podoba uwzglednienie ile masz potencjallnych outsow do blefu, nigdy w ten sposob nie myslalem.

  3. #3
    Dołączył
    Sep 2004
    Przegląda
    Near the Nutzz
    Posty
    1,083
    Cytat Zamieszczone przez dehumanizer
    niesamowita analiza gry, jak dla mnie niedoscigniony wzor !

    co do rozdania drugiego to bardzo mi sie podoba uwzglednienie ile masz potencjallnych outsow do blefu, nigdy w ten sposob nie myslalem.
    co do pierszego, to samo sobie pomyślałem, perfekcja! chociaż znowu nie aż takie to skomplikowane, ale fajnie pokazuje jak kolesie na wyższych stawkach uprawiają tzw. kilku-levelowe myślenie, te drugie z tym blefem też niezłe, gra na reprezentowanie jakiegoś układu.

  4. #4
    Dołączył
    Mar 2005
    Przegląda
    Szczecin/Manchester/Hong Kong
    Posty
    1,816
    Bardzo ciekawe analizy. Moglbys podac skad one pochodza?

  5. #5
    Dołączył
    Apr 2005
    Posty
    317
    Cytat Zamieszczone przez zdzisio
    Bardzo ciekawe analizy. Moglbys podac skad one pochodza?
    2+2

    Pzdr

  6. #6
    Cytat Zamieszczone przez Melipone
    chociaż znowu nie aż takie to skomplikowane, ale fajnie pokazuje jak kolesie na wyższych stawkach uprawiają tzw. kilku-levelowe myślenie,
    to myslenie przypomnialo mi pewien dowcip (dostepny w dziale dowcipy zresza). Analiza godna pokrerzysty


    Jadę autobusem, nie jest za luźno, ale miejsce siedzące mam. Trzeba podać bilet do skasowania. Obok stoi mężczyzna. Jak się do niego zwrócić • "Ty", czy "Pan"? Autobus jest ekspresowy. Jeli mężczyzna nie wysiadł na poprzednim przystanku znaczy, że jedzie do mojej dzielnicy. Jedzie z kwiatami • znaczy do kobiety. Kwiaty wiezie piękne, znaczy to, że i kobieta jest piękna. W naszej dzielnicy są dwie piękne kobiety • moja żona i moja kochanka. Do mojej kochanki facet jechać nie może, bo ja do niej jadę. Znaczy, że jedzie do mojej żony. Moja żona ma dwóch kochanków • Waldemara i Piotra. Waldemar jest teraz w delegacji...
    • Panie Piotrze, mógłby mi pan skasować bilet?

  7. #7
    Dołączył
    Jul 2005
    Posty
    285
    Czy ten mily pan od pierwszej analizy podal w koncu moze link z wytlumaczniem tego ze stawia kolo 2/3 3/4 puli , whatever ma ?

    Jesli ktos nie, to moze ktos z Was sie domysla?

  8. #8
    Cytat Zamieszczone przez zbrochu
    Czy ten mily pan od pierwszej analizy podal w koncu moze link z wytlumaczniem tego ze stawia kolo 2/3 3/4 puli , whatever ma ?
    moze nie zrozumialem twojego pytania, ale na poczatku analizy jest podane ze ma 32k a przeciwnik ma 2,8k.
    Pozniej kolejno podaje jakie sa wartosci betow

  9. #9
    Dołączył
    Jul 2005
    Posty
    285
    However, I also knew that I had
    played this exactly like a spade draw. ... Another
    quick piece of background information: no matter what
    the situation - whether I have the nuts, a stone
    bluff, or anything in between - I almost always bet
    between 2/3 and 3/4 of the pot. The reasons for this
    can be discussed another time if you like.
    Chodzilo mi o ten fragment